The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side". (2024)

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Marielle#94357204/06/24 08:22 AM

Absolutely right. A soulless shell can act only on command, even what can be called instinctive actions are more like “body memory” and a given “program of actions” of the one who gave the command. This creature can't feel anything at all. If you lift up old bones with necromancy and command a skeleton to stand guard, the skeleton will carry out the program you have given it, but the real person (soul) - the one to whom this body once belonged - is at that moment in the domain of their deity, living their afterlife there and they are not affected at all. If you use magic to steal a soul, to rip it out of a living body, the body will fall, it will not function, the personality is the soul you have captured, and in this case it will turn out that the one whose soul you have stolen has lost their body.

Sini mentioned about Withers' line about mindflyers not having a soul. From what he said, it appears that there is no soul, but we have Omeluum and the Emperor. Is the Omeluum really a “soulless being” (even if metaphorically speaking)? The Emperor is perfectly rational, remembers his past, is aware of himself, has feelings (love for Stelmane), his feelings are somewhat different from the human feelings we are used to, but they are there. The change of personality after turning into an illithid can be explained purely physiologically - there is a transformation, it is already another organism, neural connections are arranged differently, the hormonal system works differently, it affects the character and behavior of the creature. The body has changed - the soul remains. At the same time, the character still does not turn 180 degrees - Karlach after ceremorphosis does not start eating brains from everyone in a row, but euthanizes the hopelessly sick and dying. When Tav sacrifices themselves and becomes illithid - Tav is a hero and well done, why doesn't anyone say that Tav “loses their soul” in this case? Withers has a whole line about that! And a much more specific and unambiguous rejoinder than in the case of Astarion. It's disadvantageous to the “idea of goodness and self-sacrifice”?

If one has lost their soul, they cannot be resurrected. And how can one resurrect a “soulless” person, if the resurrection process itself is the return of the soul into the body? By the way, Ascended Astarion has no problems with resurrection.

As for the metaphorical meaning, as in reality, when someone calls someone a “soulless psychopath” we always need context in this case. The persona of the name-caller themselves, the reason why they are calling that person names, and so on. What purpose do they have with this insult? What do we know about the person they are trying to label? Any ultimatum statement can look like fact, can be misleading in that it is uttered with confidence as if it were actually based on fact. But a fact always has an evidentiary basis; a statement may not have one. If a statement has sufficient evidence, it becomes a fact; if there is no evidence, it remains unsubstantiated.

Perhaps Astarion is “losing his soul” in someone else's fanfics. This is an assumption I can't call fact, as it would take too much time and patience to research this material. But fanfics can be written based on an already formed and widespread headcanon, so this material is unlikely to have any particular practical value. But hopefully, for those who were doubtful and worried about what happens to Astarion's soul after the Ascension ritual, we were able to clarify the matter a bit. I myself was terrified of this at one time, and I'm very happy to know that the soul of the adorable bitey sunshine is perfectly fine. And metaphorically speaking - his soul has opened up, he is free and expressing himself as he is.

That's right! That's the way it is. The story doesn't have to be “perfect”, the imagination will finish whatever it needs to. The main thing is that the story should “add up” with the imagination, not try to kill it with the knife of other people's headcanons. To be possible to fantasize and dream.

Yeah, I don't need that kind of story for this romance either. Astarion and Tav have already been through a lot together, there was already love between them, and the fact that Astarion gets powers can't turn the romance into something like that. After those kisses appeared, I thought - under what circ*mstances is that even possible? Only if this is the beginning of a story about Tav being picked up and turned by a certain Vampire Lord. But even then, the behavior is too offensive for the story to continue in any way, sympathy for the kidnapper and all that. You're right, in romance stories like this, such a beginning would also be a clear failure. Few people would play it that way. The player has to believe in what's going on, not watch a video prelude to content for people who like to watch pain. There are special sites for them and can have their own games.

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Marielle#94361804/06/24 09:41 PM

I think the game may be a bit unclear there.

Sorry for my English, a mix of my English and Google Translator.

Anyway, today I watched a video from my last evil run, the scene where I accept Bhaal and become the chosen one. AA really spoil my story of the Dark Urge at this point.:( I don't know if chosing a different text changes anything, unfortunately I can't reset and test it out because I'm playing in honor mode, so it's doubly depressing that the story goes like this.

Become Bhaal's Chosen Until I get to Bhaal's temple and accept Bhaal's offer, the romance between the Durge and Astarion is fantastic... from then on... Actually, Astarion shouldn't leave the Bhaal Temple alive after what he says and kisses Durge like that. Especially since I wonder what OUR dirty little plot means. I know mine as Durge, yes... but what's Astarion's? He speaks from HIS throne, in HIS palace from where he wants to control OUR armies and the Durge can sit on his lap as his consort, not as regnant. That's not nice in the Dark Urge story.

Especially since according to Sceleritas Fel, my partner (in this case Astarion) can only continue to live if we produce spawns for Bhaal (which AA should actually be able to do again, since he is alive again). I think the entire story is for the Origin Dark Urge and Minthara. I've never tested it, can the evil Durge have other partners until the end of the game besides Astarion and Minthara? Because as far as I know, Gale breaks up with the Durge after the conversation with Gortash at the latest.

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Marielle#94364405/06/24 01:00 PM

Yes, that's right, the other gods won't get new souls! According to D&D canon, gods in principle cannot get an illithid soul, but not because they don't have a soul, but because illithids came to our world from a distant plane called the Far Realm. There are other beings from there as well, usually quite creepy and evil. The souls of these creatures seek to return back to the Far Realm after they die, but that plane is quite far away. But the gods can't do anything about the souls of these creatures, the gods have no power over them. And I understood that Withers says that illithids have no souls, since he himself is a servant of the deity, a scribe of Jergal, these souls are useless for the gods, you can say that for the gods these souls as if do not exist. And yes, for the gods this “grand design” is very dangerous. Myrkul, though, is immortal as it is, he can't be destroyed completely, though his domain is small now, and he doesn't have many followers. Bhaal longs for the end of all things. About Bane, it's a question of what he himself was thinking, because he won't get new souls that way too.

But it's in D&D canon, Larian could of course omit it, though that would be highly illogical. But there are no refutations of D&D canon on this in the game either. Withers' words are words, and he, as a servant of a god, may think so. That souls that don't belong to the gods are all but nonexistent. Besides, there is then a strong plot contradiction - why does Tav, by becoming an illithid, lose no soul and only change in appearance? And why do illithids have their own characters, their own minds and thoughts, how can they even function without having a soul? According to the rules of D&D, it's impossible. On the other hand, Withers likes to express himself in cryptic, aphoristic phrases rather than explaining in meticulous detail what's what, where from, and how. To show the threat to both the world and the gods, in general, his line is enough. Specifically the aspect of how the soul and animus works is not covered in the game at all, there is not a single book on the subject. But going by the D&D rules on the subject, it all comes together perfectly, without any contradictions.

The “naked on my lap” line seems more like some sort of romantic flirtation to me, rather than any specific “plan of action”. Well, Astarion makes jokes all the time, so I'd take it that way somehow, just as a romantic flirtation on his part. It's possible to sit around dressed up. With body 3 it would sound funny at all ("Poor Astarion, let's not, let's do it the other way around! It's going to be hard on you....").

I'm just getting started with DU right now, thanks to the great new kissing mod (Yay!), I still have a ways to go before I get to that point, maybe someone else in the thread can find that scene and check the impact of text choice, that would be interesting.

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Marielle#94364805/06/24 02:40 PM

You mean the “naked on your knees” scene? So...

1.

2.

3.

Bonus, (Dialogue for Jaheira)^^

But keep in mind, an important detail about DU аnd choosing a path:

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Marielle#94364905/06/24 02:43 PM

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

starryophonic#94365305/06/24 03:28 PM

@Marielle, thanks a lot for the Insight! It's very interested to read.

O I do agree with it. You cannot imagine how much I do wish to get such lines for a regular Tav. I also see it as flirtation, and for some people it can be a nice thought.

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Zayir#94365405/06/24 03:36 PM

It's not specific to Bhaal or Durge or anything, so I don't see why they can't sneak it in somewhere.

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Marielle#94365605/06/24 03:47 PM

DU has more Astarion interaction content in general than Tav and Astarion. For that reason alone, I'm taking the DU. I started 1 game for Tav but never got around to finishing it, something was missing((((.

We have to get over ourselves and give Tav a chance. Ha ha )

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Mirmi#94366005/06/24 03:57 PM

The Durge story doesn't really interest me but maybe one day I'll get around to it.

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Marielle#94366105/06/24 04:13 PM

In any other situation I would have interpreted it differently. As I said, I always see the Origin Dragonborn Dark Urge there and Astarion says this text to him a few minutes after he killed Orin and ascended just like Astarion. I might have wished for a little more joy from AA, we are now even more powerful and if we want to conquer the world, we now have all the means to do so. And then there's that depressing look on my Durge's face during the kiss.

But overall the text selections there are rather modest, I wouldn't have said anything about it, I would never have told Astarion that I might let him live. I really hope that they change something there and make the "sit on your lap" selection recognizable as a flirt on his part and accessible to everyone.

I also installed the mod, I hope it improves it a bit in my new evil run.

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Marielle#94366305/06/24 05:56 PM

Oh look, we even have an example of that in the game. As if Astarion's zombie ending wasn't ghastly enough.

How come the game doesn't chastise us for making this choice?

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Ametris#94366405/06/24 06:01 PM

Oh my sweet lord.

There are people who believe *this* is a better ending for Astarion than ascension. Which is fine, that's their right. Just don't be judging us for not being cool with this in our games.

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Marielle#94366805/06/24 08:11 PM

I'm not sure, but I think it's a bug. Because by analogy, after passing the temple of Shar - I could not resurrect killed in the first act on the shore Shadowhart (her quest, one of the main points, without her was executed) and similarly, could not resurrect Laezel, after the destruction of the Git temple.
Given that you can't talk to him and he's reading a book...

But this it's sad to watch. Even after his death, there's his no peace.(

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Ametris#94366905/06/24 08:34 PM

That's the ultimate proof! Astarion will always remain Astarion. Even as a soulless zombie, his personality doesn't change. He has still his old behaviour and he will read his favourite book until the end of days! Maybe his appearance changed - a litte bit.
No, seriously. Would be the worst ending for him in my opinion.

An explanation could be: Because Astarion is seen as evil, so him being out of the way is a good thing (at least for the world). That's why the game doesn't chastise the player. It's the right thing to get rid of evilness. And that, in turn, is the ultimate proof that Astarion is an evil creature. Man, how smart. - Jokes aside, it was interesting to watch. You always see something new, even if it's a bug or something like that.

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Marielle#94374007/06/24 07:33 PM

No, it's not fine. When sadism wears the garb of “goodness” it's not fine. Games should not offer such “goodness”. Such “goodness” will always have a consumer, but given that developers want to teach “moral lessons”, they should at least make it so that their morals don't please such consumers. Or don't penalize players for “evil choices” if you want to give such opportunities for “good”.

I read the comments on the video. For example: «Only tolerable version of Astarion». Just one person, without even insulting it, politely pointed out the quest line and the character's trauma. Immediately they were attacked, including with arguments: «people pay for this game like around 60 dollars and can do whatever the hell they want there. Why the hell there is such a big amount of moral police in this fandom».

The calm and joyful existence of such people online shows not only the tolerance and respect of other players that everyone can go through the game the way they want, but also clearly demonstrates the goals and character of those who attack AA fans (I don't mean UA fans, I mean only the bullers who attack), blaming them for being cruel, for causing Astarion to have a bad ending, losing his soul, etc. They are not “emotional players” who take the fate of a game character to heart. They are trying to bully real people. An emotional person might start arguing with a sad*stic hater, it's wrong, it's unnecessary, it's better not to touch it (well you're not going to tell every *** you meet that they're an ***, why would you need that?), but it would be an understandable, explainable emotional human reaction. And pouncing on someone who has your “favorite character” in the game who is perfectly fine, loved, adored and satisfied is no longer a “game reaction”, it's an excuse for classic bullying. No one organizes raids on those who enjoy the descriptions of Astarion being skinned alive and bullied over his corpse. Because a sad*st is not a victim for a buller, they won't be of any use, at best a clever troll can achieve aggression and get some “food” in the form of incoherent foul language with spelling mistakes, nothing more. The victim must be emotionally vulnerable, then the bullying will succeed. Just, if someone tries to shame you for your in-game choices, remember which ending for Astarion they think is better than Ascension. It's important to know what the aggressor is, it will help reduce emotional vulnerability.

Incidentally, Astarion, who is declared “evil” and can be treated that way, is also a victim of violence, a person with perhaps somewhat unconventional behavior that might annoy someone. He has a vulnerability. Predators always smell blood. Torturing such an “evil character” is much more “tasty” than some standard tough and unyielding “villain”. Thank you for such “rich gaming opportunities for everyone”, dear developers!

I have never seen such disgusting and vile “good” and a better advertisem*nt for “evil”. After all, “evil” is what opposes such “good”. Mephistopheles smiles off-screen. I understand Will and his naive deal with Mizora. I can imagine if, in Tav's shoes, Mephistopheles had offered me a contract that I would bring him the heads of only such “good heroes”... The devil lies in the details.

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Marielle#94374507/06/24 11:20 PM

As I said a couple of pages ago …

I’m not feeling that this is being heeded, and in fact things seem to be getting more unfriendly and attacking. Please, everyone, don’t import beefs from elsewhere to these forums and try to keep things here light and tolerant of different perspectives or I’ll need to give this thread a timeout to ensure that people have time to take on board moderation guidance.

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Marielle#94375508/06/24 01:12 PM

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Marielle#94381511/06/24 01:24 PM

Thanks to modders those of us on PC can play the game again despite patch 6! Thank you very much modders for this! I wasn't into mods before, preferring the original game, but now my opinion has completely changed. By the way, besides the kissing fix, there are other interesting mods that can improve the game with Astarion. Here's a small list of what I found to my liking (maybe someone else will find it useful).

1. Nightingale's Lord Astarion - Ascended Astarion Alternative Romance

Perfect kissing set for body 1 (8 kisses for body 1, of which 4 kisses are also suitable for body 2). Also added a hug as a romantic interaction.

2. Happy facial expressions for Ascended Astarion kisses

Changes Tav's facial expressions in Ascended Astarion's kisses to happy ones (except for the bite kiss).

3. Astarion Post Ascension Dialogue Fix

Fixes the lines for Tav in the dialog with Astarion after the Ascension. Yes, I love our beautiful Vampire Ascendant!

4. Astarion's Gear

Gorgeous outfit for Astarion.

5. Astarion Vampire Wedding Rings

Engagement rings for the lovely married couple.

6. Astarion Bugbear and Ogre Dialogue Priority

Gives Astarion priority for his dialogue during the Bugbear and Ogre Scene.

7. Auntie Ethel - Dark Urge Dialogue Bug Fix (with Optional Astarion Priority)

Gives Astarion priority to interject when Auntie Ethel is regaling you with her tale about "...a fella who'd been caught dabbling with a dryad."

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Marielle#94389913/06/24 04:30 PM

Thank you so much for this list!
I play console but am so excited to be able to try mods with patch 7!

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Marielle#94390213/06/24 05:56 PM

@Natasy

Yes, there will finally be support for mods on all platforms, I hope they do well! With the new modding tools, maybe in time modders will create something impressive. One Nightingale mod with new kisses is already turning "weird nightmare realm" into "realm of my dreams". This is encouraging and shows that in today's digital world, in digital entertainment, nothing so terrible can happen anymore that can't be fixed. Of course, I hope the company listens to us and removes traumatizing content from the official version of the game so as not to hurt people, but at least if there are any new kisses with unpleasant "undertones", we can always swap them out for better and more appropriate ones for our story. Just like replacing the lines for Tav with roleplay-appropriate lines. For a while after the new patch is released, the old mods will probably be unavailable, but I hope to get mod support working on all platforms as soon as possible!